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 Post subject: Any Pilots on Here?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:05 am 
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Motorcycle: 2016 Honda Rebel
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
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Here is a topic and I will start it off with a link to a site that will substantiate what my comment is in regards to:http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Pages/Multi-engine%20Flight%20Training%20-%20Background%20Knowledge%20-%20Vmc.html

I do not only ride motorcycles, I am a certified/licensed pilot and I belonged to a club one time and they wanted to lease a Beech Baron 58 but it needed it's Annual Insp. & some minor issues before we took it in on lease to rent out. After all the work had been done by a licensed A&P, our top twin engine pilot with the most time in twins wanted to take it for a test flight, I just happened to be there at the time and I was working on getting my muti-engine rating, so he asked if I would like to go.

I am not go to get into a detailed explanation because I am sure it is over most motorcyclist enthusiasts heads, but you have to perform a vmc stall in order to get checked out in a twin. He climbed to about 11,000 feet and he explained to me what was going to happen, well he proceeded to perform the vmc stall and the right engine failed, and the plane flipped over 180 deg. and went into a flat spin.

The only chance for recovery was to get a restart on the failed engine or it would have ended as a complete disaster. I do not remember when they came up with the idea of counter-rotating engines to counter what they call P factor, well he got the engine started and recovered the plane in an upright position and we both we shook very bad. He flew back and we decided against taking the plane in on lease.

Experience is better than any book or article you read, that is the reason they have people to test motorcycles, airplanes and etc., that is their job and it carries alternate consequences, so all people that believe their way is the only way is ignorant.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Pilots on Here?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:13 pm 
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Motorcycle: Rebel 250 plus a few others
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I moved your post over here since I think the previous thread was pretty much fully thrashed out and you have raised an entirely new subject not much related to motorcycles. I don't know how many pilots we have here but I suspect more than a couple.

Perhaps you could explain again about how you have to demonstrate a Vmc STALL in order to get checked out in a twin engined aircraft. I believe you are trying to say you would need to demonstrate Vmc flight with a simulated critical engine failure (normally left engine idling) and the running right engine at full power. Should the aircraft approach a stall condition while approaching Vmc as recognized by buffeting and loss of elevator response, then stall recovery must immediately take priority to prevent loss of control of the aircraft. No flight instructor or examiner would ever ask a student to actually demonstrate a stall during a Vmc demonstration. As soon as a pilot recognizes an incipient stall, then his priority immediately shifts to preventing the stall rather than trying to demonstrate single engine flight at an even lower speed which would clearly be impossible.

Should a violent stall occur such as you describe, then recovery would require immediate throttling back on the good engine to remove the asymmetric thrust and pushing the yoke forward to increase angle of attack while holding full right rudder to neutralize the yaw to the left. Only after airspeed had recovered to well above Vmc would a pilot want to reapply power. Trying to restart an engine before recovering from a stall/spin would be a waste of valuable time you don't have in that situation. The first priority is always to keep the airplane flying under control whether under power or not.

BTW, I never had a multi-engine endorsement, but I was a class 1 instrument rated commercial pilot for 25 years before losing my medical certificate a few years back.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Pilots on Here?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:32 am 
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Ummm.... Never have I EVER been asked to take a twin into an actual Vmc stall. My multi check ride was in a Twin Comanche (did my initial commercial & multi engine, plus a multi engine IFR add-on in the same ride). The DPE and I discussed Vmc ops during the oral portion. He asked what I would do if that were to occur, and since I explained to his satisfaction, we then discussed how we would proceed with the in flight 'demo'. I set up the plane to simulate the engine out, slowed the plane down to agreed upon a/s, which was 2-3 kts above stall speed, flew for a couple minutes like this, discussed actual stall recovery procedures, then recovered. But we never actually got the stall, so to speak. never did one while in training, either. Again, discussed procedures and practiced/simulated procedures in the air.

Why did we not do full on Vmc stalls? Just for the reason you described. A Baron is one of the few GA aircraft that has c/r props. The King Air I flew later on did as well. But a Twin Comanche? Nope. Had that happened in this plane, there would have been a smoking hole somewhere in Van Nuys, CA.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Pilots on Here?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:56 am 
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I was a private pilot for 6 years, 1981-1987. Single engine, land, under 12,000 pounds, no instrument rating. Trained in a Cessna 150 and 172. Only other plane I ever flew, from the right seat, was a 1947 Beechcraft V35 Bonanza. Major difference. I definitely prefer high wing planes. Anyway, being poor, and with no possibility of ever owning a plane, and could not afford to rent one, when my friend sold his Cessna, I had no way to keep my logbook current, and gave it up. Even if I could afford it now, there is no way I could ever get my pilots certification back, because I could not pass the physical. I do go down to the local flight school 3-4 times a year, pay for a plane and CFI for an hour or so, he takes me up, turns it over to me, I fly around awhile, then he lands it. Surprisingly after all this time, and with minimum hours experience, I do fairly well. The CFI has never had to take the plane while I was flying.

We did have to practice stalls, but a Cessna is virtually stall proof. When it does stall, just release the controls and it will recover on it's own. That's assuming you didn't pull the column all the way back and cut the throttle. Even then if you had enough altitude you MIGHT recover, but the 172 is a utility aircraft, and is not designed for such maneuvers. It would roll to the right, then go into a tailspin. Even at altitude, there is a real danger of exceeding it's max airspeed and having it disintegrate in the air.

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 Post subject: Re: Any Pilots on Here?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:33 am 
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You can spin and recover in a 172. Not recommended, but it has been done numerous times. Much more fun in a 152. Used to do them all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Any Pilots on Here?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:51 am 
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Motorcycle: Rebel 250 plus a few others
Rebel: 250
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dee g wrote:
You can spin and recover in a 172. Not recommended, but it has been done numerous times. Much more fun in a 152. Used to do them all the time.


Yeah, but I always found the 172 to be very user friendly. I never worried too much about it breaking up in flight. It was quite hard to make the thing stall clean. The Piper Cherokee is great fun to spin Wait for the buffet with power off and then pull all the way back on the yoke. Down you go!

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1996 Ducati 900SS
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