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 Post subject: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Jun 18, 2009
Motorcycle: 1999 Rebel CMX
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: FL
City: Summerfield
Took a short ride today, to check the audio settings on an adjustable microphone that I ordered with my new motorcycle camera kit. Was thinking to myself. Who is going to not see me today. Wasn't long before I found out. Less than 5 minutes into the ride. The video say it all.

How 2 seconds can alter your life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoBE5wP1roM

Just another day in the life of a Rebel Rider. Only bad news. No audio from the new microphone.

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1999 Honda Rebel VQR234se
. . . . . 43,000+ Miles . . . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:26 am 
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Motorcycle: Honda Shadow ACE (2003)
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Well they may be good at tight turns in a little buggy like that, but they have no experience with trailers ;0) Glad it didn't turn into something!

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Traded-in '85 Rebel on 12/18/10. You will be missed, old friend. You were my first.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:49 am 
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Joined: Sep 9, 2004
Motorcycle: Suzuki Gsf1250
Rebel: 450
Country: Canada
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I notice that the 'driver' (term used loosely) rolled down his window and seems to be pointing upward with his index finger. Any idea what concept he was trying to relay other than "Hey, dude, I almost sent you to Heaven" ?
brent

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"If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem" G.Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Motorcycle: 1999 Rebel CMX
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: FL
City: Summerfield
When the driver of the other vehicle lowered his window. His explaination was, I was following the guy in the pickup. That was the gesture with his left hand. He was pointing at the pickup.

I'm very cool under fire. Patience is something that Uncle Sam instilled into me, whin I was in the USAF, in the early 60's.

No harm, no foul. The other driver will have to live with the memory. He almost killed someone today. If he has an active mind, he will remember this incident for a while. That will be his punishment.

A saying I over heard somewhere. You can't cure stupid. This can only be cured by oneself. Nobody else can teach this to someone.

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If you're Waiting on me, you're Late.



1999 Honda Rebel VQR234se
. . . . . 43,000+ Miles . . . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:31 am 
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Joined: Jul 25, 2003
Motorcycle: 98 Valkyrie
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: GA
City: Vidalia
Soul Searcher wrote:
His explaination was, I was following the guy in the pickup.


Oh. Well that explains _everything_, doesn't it? :lol: "I had to swing stupidly wide because I was chasing that parked truck!" I mean, clearly the turn was a last minute suprise: the pick-up truck barely had time to make the turn, come to a complete stop, and wait for the little whatever-that-goofy-looking-car-pulling-the-Polaris-is to find him. Obviously, it was a total surprise. :yapyap1:

Glad it all worked out safely, though. :duke:

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Duke
"Skills must be Learned"
------ Herb Christian


"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a television commercial is right for _you_."


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:39 am 
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Joined: Feb 11, 2009
Country: USA
State/Province: NY
City: Long Island
I watched the video several times it is a great learning tool about awareness of your surroundings, visibility and being prepared to take action. It may be surprising but I am going to come to the defense of the truck driver for his mistake, mistakes do happen. Thankfully in this case no one was hurt and surly he would have been deemed rightfully responsible had this had a worse outcome. If you stop the video at the moment the truck comes fully into view and look carefully you'll notice that he is just about at his I need to prepare for this turn and have to make decisions moment. He scans the road ahead and into the turn and what does he see. Nothing ahead, to the right he sees as he's proceeding, perhaps scanning several times, a tree, a sign, his friends truck and possibly no other vehicles! If you look in a non judgemental way you'll notice that the truck just about disappears behind each of these items. He may truly have not seen the bike even with very careful observation. Yes he did make a very wide turn but he's pulling a trailer and making wide turns is part of the process. This turn was obviously a bit wider than necessary but again if he didn't see a need to why cut it closer. His comment at the end? That was actually a knee-jerk comment when "I'm sorry" would have been more appropriate. He knew he screwed up that's why he said anything, he just said the wrong thing. Good things were happening on the bike. Soul Searcher was aware of his surroundings and going at an appropriate speed considering he was approaching the intersection and I'm willing to bet that he noticed the truck coming because when you're on a bike you just are more aware, you have to be, and this is why he had no trouble stopping in time. I don't know what he was wearing but maybe this video is a good reminder of the need to stay as visible as possible although like I said considering the obstructions I'm not sure even high vis yellow would have worked. My compliments to Soul Searcher for handling the potential hazard well and for not flipping the guy the finger, I believe the guy in the truck learned something too.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:39 am 
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Motorcycle: Suzuki Gsf1250
Rebel: 450
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City: Rusagonis
Atis:
You are clearly generous of spirit. Good for you! Yes, we all DO make mistakes. And the key to benefitting from a survived mistake is to analyse it, and ensure it doesn't happen again. If there is a teachable moment hidden in this video, it is for the trailer towing driver, and regrettably, he's not here to hear it. In my mind, the lesson is this: If you suddenly realize that you are passing by your turn/driveway/freeway exit, then accept that, drive on, and turn around or take the next exit as appropriate. There is no good excuse for driving into the oncoming lane on a turn, particularly with that vehicle and that trailer. 18 wheeler? sure. Nonetheless, no one was hurt, Soulsearcher did the right thing at the right time, and survived.

In a nutshell, the driver tried to make a turn when it was too late: he was either too far beyond the turn point or going too fast for the turn, or both.

And lest we get too cocky about this, I would say I've seen WAY more motorcyclists cross the line on a turn or curve than car drivers, given their proportion on the road. In particular, I note that a disproportionate number of large cruiser riders find it difficult to make a right hand turn out of a driveway, without either approaching or crossing the centerline. You know, without doing the the ever-popular but embarrassing 'parkinglot paddle'. :lol:

brent

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"If you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem" G.Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:28 am 
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Motorcycle: Honda Shadow ACE (2003)
Rebel: None
Country: USA
State/Province: DE
I'm just waiting for the "LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES" comment to spring up ;0)

(oops)

hahaha

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Traded-in '85 Rebel on 12/18/10. You will be missed, old friend. You were my first.


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Motorcycle: Rebel 250 plus a few others
Rebel: 250
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City: Fredericton
The scenario of a motorcycle being concealed from a cager by a truck or van is one that happens all the time, and one that a rider will do well to anticipate. My last for real "quick stop" happened when following a cube van in traffic on a city thru street. The van was signalling a right turn at the upcoming intersection, and as he turned, a pickup truck entering from the same side street pulled out in front of me. I was on the left side of my lane (where I should have been) following the van and visible to him and the oncoming traffic but invisible to the pickup driver waiting to enter from my right . Rather than waiting to see the way clear, the pickup pulled into the intersection because he thought nothing was behind the van. Fortunately I was able to get stopped well before I would have T boned him because I was paying attention.

Soul Searcher's case is a little better because he was approaching a stop sign, so would be at reduced speed expecting to stop in any case. He didn't get a lot of warning about the lane violator, because the truck blocked his view of the offender to some degree as well. He handled it well by stopping early but still in his lane position. The only thing I might have done different is to move to the extreme right of the roadway as I stopped, thus yielding the entire road to the trailer guy.
As Brent says its a learning experience and thanks to Soul Searcher for sharing it with us.

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2003 BMW K1200GT
2004 BMW R1200GS
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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:02 pm 
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Motorcycle: 98 Valkyrie
Rebel: 250
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City: Vidalia
In keeping with the open-minded, non-judgemental approach, this is why I find the driver of the trailer-pulling-thingy (what _is_ that thing, anyway?) completely in the wrong:

Atis wrote:
He scans the road ahead and into the turn and what does he see. Nothing ahead, to the right he sees as he's proceeding, perhaps scanning several times, a tree, a sign, his friends truck and possibly no other vehicles! If you look in a non judgemental way you'll notice that the truck just about disappears behind each of these items.


You are completely right. This should indicate to him that there is a _large_ area of the road that he cannot see: all those things, including his friend's truck, are blocking just as much road from his view as they are blocking from Wyman's view.

I put a post up a here a couple of months ago about watching a guy get nailed because he scanned the lane he was going to cross (we were both wanting to make the same left turn), but was so close to the truck in front of us that he couldn't actually _see_ enough of the lane he was trying to cross to ensure that it was clear of traffic. The little bit he could see _was_ clear. However, he got tagged by an oncoming car that was traveling at the listed speed of 30 mph. At a mere 30 mph, this vehicle was able to come out from where it was hidden by the vehicle in front of us and move into the "clear" area the rider could see and ultimately over the bike turning left.

Atis wrote:
He may truly have not seen the bike even with very careful observation.


There is no doubt that he didn't see our friend Wyman at all. However, careful observation would have told him that there was a large enough chunk of road hidden from his view to hide some sort of traffic. We can talk about hiding motorcycles all day long, but that was a full-sized Chevy pick-up. You can hide an Impala behind one of those.

Just like in the case of the bike that _did_ get run over, the guy turning into oncoming traffic would have been at at fault had something happened to our friend Soul Searcher. The guy with the bike (and his vocal "bikes are always the victims!" supporters) were quite surprised to find out that even though the guy on the bike wasn't speeding, and even though he _did_ check the road, he was quite at fault for the accident: he didn't have enough field of vision to make the decisions he made. Sadly, he paid pretty dearly for it (he lived, but he's quite messed up).

It's not even like it was a hard call to make: I was right next to the guy, waiting to make the same left. I knew I didn't have enough information about the other lane to make a safe decision; he felt that he did. He turned, and I stopped and waited for the truck in front of us to get further down the road, clearing my field of vision. He got hit; I'm here to talk about it.

Atis wrote:
Yes he did make a very wide turn but he's pulling a trailer and making wide turns is part of the process.


I am going to give the guy the absolute benefit of a doubt and assume that this was the very first time he had _ever_ pulled _any_ kind of trailer, because while wide turns are part of the process-- _sometimes_-- the combo of that little trailer pulling thing and the little trailer he's pulling didn't mandate a wide turn for that corner. He could have ridden the centerline in his own lane and still had room to ride a horse between himself and the shoulder. The width of that turn on that curve is completely unwarranted

Given all that, I just _have_ to assume that either he's never pulled a trailer, ever, or he's one of those drivers (and you've all seen them) that doesn't realized that the steering wheel will go _all the way around_, and not just once! :shock: :lol:

However, even with that in mind, there are multiple options for making a wide turn (in situations where they are actually called for), the most common being to move wide of the curve _before_ the turn. This gives you two distinct advantages: you can _see_ oncoming traffic, as it's on the road you are currently traveling (thus you can stop and wait until you can actually see there is no traffic coming at you and move out left to make your right) _and_ it prevents you from having to pull blind around the curve and into the oncoming lane.

Looking at it as objectively as possible, this guy was actually _lucky_ that it was a motorcycle coming-- something with strong brakes and a narrow-enough profile to dodge if it has to. He just made bad decision after bad decision:

Pulling a trailer around an acute junction with no experience (again, benefit of a doubt), swinging way wider that was remotely justified, _not_ taking the extra room he felt he needed to take from the road on which he had actual visibility, and then going headlong into a traffic lane that was blocked by his buddy's truck. The more you look at it, the more it looks like someone actively trolling for a collision.

Had it actually been an Impala rolling along there instead of Wyman, I think it would have gotten pretty ugly. :(

Atis wrote:
if he didn't see a need to why cut it closer.


That's really what this comes down to: he's not thinking / processing / paying enough attention realize that he _does_ need to cut it closer, and he needs to do it because he is about to make what is effectively a blind corner. There is _always_ a reason to cut tight on a blind turn, and that reason is "I am making this turn completely blind." Instead, he took a crap shoot, and Wyman ended up shooting crap. :lol:

Atis wrote:
His comment at the end? That was actually a knee-jerk comment when "I'm sorry" would have been more appropriate.


Sure. That doesn't bug me. I actually found it funny (note above ;) ). He knew he was wrong and was trying to make amends / explains by way of apology. However, none of that really removes from him the responsibility to know how to identify a blind turn and drive accordingly. :lol:

Atis wrote:
when you're on a bike you just are more aware, you have to be,


This comment comes up a lot, and honestly, it's one of the scariest things anyone can say. You don't have to be sharper or more alert because you are on a bike: you need to be that sharp and alert to be on the road, _period_, even if you're pulling a trailer for the first time and have to navigate a turn that your buddy has blocked with his pick-up truck. Anyone who finds themselves suddenly "more aware" because they are on a motorcycle should take that as severe commentary on and wake-up call about the way that they drive when they are _not_ on a motorcycle. ;)

Atis wrote:
My compliments to Soul Searcher for handling the potential hazard well and for not flipping the guy the finger,


You know, it occurs to me that we can't actually _see_ his hands in that video. ;)

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Duke
"Skills must be Learned"
------ Herb Christian


"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a television commercial is right for _you_."


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 Post subject: Re: Almost a Crash - In Hi Def.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:05 pm 
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wheezeburnt wrote:
I would say I've seen WAY more motorcyclists cross the line on a turn or curve than car drivers,


Truer words were never spoken. :(

Wheezeburnt wrote:
In particular, I note that a disproportionate number of large cruiser riders find it difficult to make a right hand turn out of a driveway, without either approaching or crossing the centerline. You know, without doing the the ever-popular but embarrassing 'parkinglot paddle'. :lol:


Well, those are _almost_ truer. Certainly equally true. :lol:

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Duke
"Skills must be Learned"
------ Herb Christian


"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a television commercial is right for _you_."


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