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 Post subject: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:00 pm 
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Last week I was doing my lawn, and almost ran out of gas; but had only a little left to do.
the only gas I had was my 2 stroke gas (for my trimmer/weed eater).
I added a little of it in the mower tank, and noticed an increase in RPM on it while mowing the lawn.

So I decided to pour a little for testing in my Rebel.
I usually realize when it's time to change engine oil on my Rebel, when the engine starts vibrating a bit more, and the gears don't shift as smoothly anymore. And I was getting close to my next oil change.
I poured 1/2 a bottle of 2stroke oil in the tank.
It would equal a ratio of 200:1.
For reference, most 2 stroke weed eaters use a 32 to 50:1 ratio in their fuel.
So the dose is very mild on my bike.

Exhaust seems identical to running normal gas; clean, no visible smoke;
Idle RPM is the same, but the engine revs much smoother now, almost like I just did a fresh oil change!
Top speed is not affected.

I think it's benefitting me. A friend of mine is using it for years in his lawnmower he says.
At low doses like these, there's not a lot of carbon buildup. Even after years of use his plugs look still relatively new.
Perhaps high RPMs blow away most carbon deposit...


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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:26 pm 
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The increase in RPM could well have been due to the leaner mix the engine was seeing as a result of the oil content in the fuel, not because there was suddenly less friction. Oil is not gasoline, and you will run a bit leaner with oil in your fuel. At 200:1 it would be a pretty minor effect.
I wouldn't do it, simply because it's not necessary. Good 4 stroke engines that are well maintained according to the book will run for an extremely long time with minimal wear.

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Motorcycle: 98 Valkyrie
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What he said. You've got a double effect going, resulting in what appears to be a smoother ride. One, as Duckster pointed out, is a marginal leaning of the fuel mixture. The other is a slightly less powerful "bang" when the plugs fire. The oil content is going to burn a bit cooler than the gas content, and the over-all mixture isn't going to burn as effectively.

In the long run, you're going to increase the rate of sooting of your plugs, valves, and piston tops. In the short run-- well, as you saw for yourself, no real harm.

About the only time I've ever found it appropriate to run two-stroke oil in a four-stroke car is the Mazda RX-7. If you're really, _really_ tired of changing apex seals, running two-stroke seems to make them last forever. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:32 pm 
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Considering the high revs that the Rebel does, I don't think there's going to be a lot of carbon deposit buildup in the cylinders. Especially since I'm running it at a very low dosage, and most fuels have cleaning agents in them, to remove carbon deposit.

I will check the plugs periodically.

It adds about $0.5 per gallon; I'm thinking of lowering that, to a 400:1 mix (1/4th of a bottle per tank, or about $.25 more per gallon), and see if it does anything.


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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:20 pm 
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So how will you know if it does anything? :waiting1:

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:52 pm 
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I assume that's a reference to the afore-mentioned smoothing of idle and reduced operating temperature.

and MeeLee:

Do you mean $.05 / gallon, or is it actually adding fifty cents per gallon?!

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:07 pm 
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Well, it's about $2 per bottle (6fl), so yes, $0.5 per gallon added at 200:1,
I'm just experimenting with it, but my lawnmower made more benefit out of it than my bike.
Perhaps an indicator to change the oil on that too someday soon...


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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:29 am 
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MeeLee wrote:
Well, it's about $2 per bottle (6fl), so yes, $0.5 per gallon added at 200:1,
I'm just experimenting with it, but my lawnmower made more benefit out of it than my bike.


I'm just wondering how exactly you know that the engine operated at reduced temperature, given how many variables are involved in an air cooled engine's operating temperature, and not having any instrumentation to measure it.

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:35 am 
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I must confess to having occasionally snuck a little 2 stroke oil into my lawn mower for the sole purpose of generating a bit of 'fog' to keep the black flies and mosquitoes at bay while cutting the lawn. Works pretty well.
brent

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:05 pm 
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I never tried the two-stroke oil for that, but I have dampened a cheap gas station cigar a time or two. Keeps the gnats at bay, greatly reduces the mosquitos, and I almost _never_ have to talk to the neighbor. :D

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:15 am 
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Ah!!! win-win!
brent

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:53 pm 
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Using a little 2 stroke oil in a 4 stroke engine won't hurt anything, and will help protect even modern engine engines from damage from ethanol in the gas. I use marine grade 2 stroke oil (the cheap stuff, bought 5 gallons at the time) in my '60s model cars, to help protect the engines from both ethanol and the lack of lead.

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:10 am 
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I started out with a mixture of 100:1, half the oil a 2 stroker needs.

I've thinned it out over the course of each fuel tank, until I was left with a 600:1 mixture, which acts almost like regular gasoline.

I found that at 200:1, the engine felt just as smooth as at 100:1, but with less oil.
At 400:1 I found that the vibrations mildly increased over 200:1, but it still felt better than regular gasoline,
and at an 600:1 ratio, it was very similar to regular gasoline, where I guess the oil ratio is too low to notice any difference.

I found absolutely zero problems with mixture 200:1, which my test results show below, and currently testing a 300:1 mixture.
200:1 gave:
No clogging of the jets,
No fouling of the plugs (I do ride at 5-6k rpm, which may help remove carbon deposit).

No colored exhaust (a little at 50:1, but even at 100:1 the exhaust was transparent).

Engine temperatures are the same, or lower compared to a fuel only mixture.
If I'd have to guess, I'd say they are a bit lower, but that would be by feeling the engine heat when coming off of a hot interstate ride, on a hot day, and looking at engine RPM when idling right after a highway exit (idle rpm lowers quicker with oil, and doesn't run as high). I didn't measure with a thermometer, but I would say that it does run a few degrees cooler, or the same at worst by feel.

MPG numbers have been largely the same, or, if it would improve would be in the range of 1-3mpg better, but not worse.

Performance is identical than with only gasoline; if any performance is gained, it's within a 1 to 2MPH higher top speed, not really noticeable in most cases, but it's definitely not worse.

By adding 50:1 rated 2 stroke oil, in a ratio of 200:1, the rebel's fuel price for a tank goes up by $0.75 per tank, not $0.50 as I previously mentioned.

This based on $3 for a 6.4oz 2 stroke oil bottle, which at 200:1 is good for upto 10 gal of fuel, or 4 full tanks (with reserve), 5 tanks if you refuel before hitting reserve.
It can be lowered to $0.5 per tank when running at 300:1, and buying a $50, 1 gallon of 2 stroke oil instead of small 6.4 oz bottles.
Perhaps there are cheaper brands out there...

I'm still running tests between 200:1 to 400:1, which I will want to share later, to see if the $/gal can be lowered further, and find my optimal mixture ratio.

The oil in the fuel should also increase the fuel's octane rating, as it is an additive which isn't as prone to spontaneous combustion as fuel is. This could be beneficial if you're running the bike on regular (87) octane, in hot weather (over 90 to 100 degrees), at high performance.
For city riding, the octane rating of 87 is good enough if outside temperatures are below 100F.

Better lubrication and sealing of the intake valves.

If 2stroke oil lubricates a 2stroker engine, it will most certainly lubricate the top side of a 4 stroker cylinderwall, when the piston is on the upstroke.

But the biggest benefits are:
There's noticeably less buzz when riding city or highway, which should result in longer engine life.

I like this bike, and want to keep it for the long term.
I hope to do 50k miles on it or more, but if I could do 75k miles, or more, I would!

$0.5 per tank may seem a lot, but it really isn't that much.
A $50 1 gallon jar should last me about 160 gal of fuel, or 10k miles, if calculated correctly.

I haven't had much time riding lately on those oil mixes, just 1000 test miles, but thought sharing my findings would be interesting to some...


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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:46 am 
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So you have no evidence of any benefit at all, other than your subjective impressions which I'd suggest are hugely subject to a confirmation bias toward your basic theory.

These are 3 facts:

1. A well maintained Rebel can do over 100k miles and last for 25 years without any additives to fuel as has been demonstrated by Buickguy's experience with his '87 model.

2, I've put more than 200,000 kms over 25 years on a motorcycle engine that was still running well and not using any significant oil between changes.

3. Automotive engines run huge mileages on straight gasoline without the expense and trouble of adding small amounts of extra oil to the fuel.

It seems to me that the best you can claim is that going to the trouble of spending an additional 75 cents per tank on oil does no measurable harm to the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:25 am 
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I have used "old saw gas" in the CRF with no problems, but I never added more than about a quart of the saw gas to a fresh tank of fuel. That bike is air cooled, has ~9:1 compression, and is run nearly wide open much of the time. This beat disposing of the chain-saw gas in a fire or on the ground.

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:13 am 
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Well, if nothing else, I guess I feel a little better about tucking some leftover saw gas into the bike tank (been doing it anyway; just kinda felt ambivalent about it). Its usually 50:1 fuel mix, and I never exceed about 25% of tank capacity,, so I guess I'm looking at the 150:1 to 200:1 ratio. Given how persnickety my 30 year old saw can be, and how forgiving my bike seems to be, it seems like a win-win.
Its the Hippocratic oath applied to motor mechanics: "First, do no harm". :D
John: yeah, it sure makes an exciting fire starter, doesn't it? Saves shaving for a few days. rofl
brent

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:18 pm 
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Well.. Disposing of old saw gas is another story... It's about being a good steward of the environment.. not about making your bike last longer. I usually dump the end of the year chainsaw gas into the tank of my Santa Fe, not to make it run better, but just to get rid of the stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:29 pm 
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2 stroke oil: it's the new SeaFoam. :D

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:49 pm 
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Richard: How DARE you? rofl rofl rofl
Jim: The good news is, at least out here in the gornish, since Hurricane Arthur, there's been no such thing as leftover saw gas. My entire wood supply for the upcoming winter and the next came from blowdown, and its all yellow birch! (but I do so love that impressive WHOOOMP! when I throw a wooden match into a gas-soaked brush pile. :D
brent

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 Post subject: Re: a little 2 stroke oil in the fuel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:47 pm 
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I hear ya on that Brent. Not only Arthur, but we had a big ice storm early last winter that broke down several white birch on my property. My chainsaw is working for a living these days. I doubt if John and Richard would have much use for a chainsaw out there in the desert.

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