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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:53 pm 
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Motorcycle: 98 Valkyrie
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67fastback wrote:
Duke thanks for all your in site on the this and electrical experience.. I think you love to write book..lol


:oopps1:

heh heh heh--

Not really; I swear.

The problem is the medium: since no matter how many people join a thread, or how long it runs, it's not a true "conversation." That is, it takes some time before each person "speaking" knows if the people "listening" understood or have any questions or disagreements. Because of the turn-around time, and the fact that sometimes I just can't get back to the board in a reasonable time, I try very hard to be as thorough as I possibly can. I apologize because I know it can be annoying, and I'm always afraid that it will come off as condescending or patronizing, but the simple fact is that I just want to be as clear as possible and detailed as possible to prevent any misunderstandings; that's all.


Quote:
I believe I will change out the rectifier just because.


To date, it is my absolute favorite Rebel modification. While it doesn't really _add_ any electrical power, it allows more efficient use of the power that is made: less amperage to each circuit (at least while the voltage is up) means lighter loads on the wires, switches, and more effective charging in general. I think it's a great idea.

Quote:
surprised no one has made a heavier switch to help with burn out yet.


It really isn't a common problem (surprisingly), but if it's something that concerns you, there is a _very_ simple trick you can do with a relay and an in-line fuse that will reduce the load on the switch to milliamps, making arcing (the ultimate cause of switch burn out) so minuscule as to be a non-issue. Again, it's not a common problem, but if you just want to tinker, then you might consider doing it.


Quote:
I did pick up a H$ conversion kit from my Honda dealer for 40 bucks.


That's a steal, if it's a complete unit! :shock:

Quote:
it did not have the little metal slot at the top of old light. so that means it could rotate in the bucket.


I'm not sure just what it is that you are referring to here. The reflector can rotate? If it's the reflector, you can probably secure it with double-sided tape or something along those lines-- something easy to pull out when you need to replace the bulb, but easy and inexpensive to replace.

Quote:
I have added crash bars and lower running lights 55w on the crash bars. Now with the H4 conversion and the lower running lights will do an over draw on the system and cause the bike not to charge the battery?


I actually just left you a question about that on another thread. Have you run those running lights at all? I expect you'll find that you really don't have sufficient power to operate those, even with the old 35/35 sealed beam! :shock: If you look at this thread here:

http://rebel250.com/rebelforum/view ... hp?t=10880

You will see that the Rebel puts out a total of 190 watts of power. At 13v, this is about 14 and a half amps. At 14v, it's about 13 and a half amps.

If you deduct the draws of the items listed in the second box of that post, you are left with 60.7 watts assuming high beam and one turn signal are in use. This does _not_ take into account the draw of the ignition (which we had around here in another post, but I can't find it anywhere) or the power needed to charge the battery after a start. Just toss out 10 watts or so and round your "extra" available power to 50 watts.

Your running lights will be drawing 110w when they are turned on. 50 - 110 = -60, or a steady drain of 60 watts _out_ of the battery, with nothing going in. Additional power to keep the engine running will also be coming out of the battery.

Forget the running lights for a minute. Let's assume you did the headlight upgrade. Take that 50 watts available and add back in the 35.6 watts the old headlight will not be using, taking you up to -- let's just call it 85, to be safe. Then you install the upgraded headlight, which can draw up to 60 watts, knocking your "spare power" down to a meager 25 watts, or about 90 watts less than you need to run your auxiliary lighting.

This is why (not just Rebels, but most motorcycles until the last few years) rarely have such lighting on them. Goldwings, some of the bigger Kawasakis, etc-- they have them because their charging system includes and actual, honest-to-God alternator with some shockingly high output. But most of the parallel twins and inline fours just don't have the chops to run those lights.


Now don't despair! LED technology is almost affordable now, and that changes everything! :D I say "almost affordable" because most of the LED 'driving lights' you find on the market today are absolute crap, meant to ornamental more than functional. But there are some functional LED driving lights out there.

These, for example:

http://www.alpena.ca/Product.aspx?id=1150

I have a couple of those on the back of the Leviathan that double as back-up lights for the wife (she's night blind). The light from those things is just unbelievable. One of those lights does three amazing things:

1) draws only 16 watts instead of the 55 watts that one of your current auxiliary lights draws.

2) costs seventy bucks.

3) outperforms your actual headlight.

You could, if asymmetry doesn't bother you, get more light from one of those than you will from two of your current lights. You can install two of them and draw only 32 watts and turn the road into an airport runway.

Now 32 watts is still less than the 25 watts you have available when your high beam is on, right?

So let's do this:

Turn off the high beam, and you gain an extra watts, for a total of 30 watts. Still less than 32, but let's look at a couple of other things:

When your brake light is not on, you pick up another 27 watts. Well hey-- your brake light is off most of the time, right? So you're ostensibly got plenty of power to run these things! Yay!

Though for what it's worth, I'd give strong consideration to installing a relay that is disconnected by the high beam. That is, when you flip to high beam headlights, the aux lights turn off. It's just a defense to save you from overdrawing when you don't have to.

Alternatively, you could use a relay to turn them off when the brake light is lit. Or both.

I'm not a big fan of turning off the light with the brake light simply because you might see something with your new lights that makes you _want_ to hit the brakes. Then your new lights turn off, and .... well, you see where I'm going. But it's certainly something to think about.

You can swap every bulb on your bike (even your indicators) for LEDs. That will save you several watts, allowing you to run these things without a moment's worry.


Yes; they're pricey. But here's a few things to consider:

They have a life expectancy about seven times as long as most halogen 'accessory' lights. They are solidly sealed. A stone chip isn't going to take them out, and I've backed them right into the river a time or two at the boat ramp and they didn't even notice. They are really amazing lights. Granted, I had to take out a mortgage to buy them, but they've been totally worth it.

The only real down side is that they are unbelievably heavy! :lol:



Quote:
Or will I have to try it out and see what the volts at the battery are with everything running?


Because the Rebel barely charges at lower RPM, you will have to install a voltmeter that you can read as you're going down the road. It's easy enough to do, but I'll save you some worry:

You will not be able to run your current accessory lights, even with your old headlight. You certainly can't do it with the upgrade. They may illuminate, but that's because they will draw power from the battery. At least, right up until the bike dies from lack of power and a completely dead battery.

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"Skills must be Learned"
------ Herb Christian


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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:57 pm 
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Motorcycle: 98 Valkyrie
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67fastback wrote:
Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.????

cant upload pic sorry


The board doesn't host pics. You'll have to upload it elsewhere and link it to the board. We used to recommend photo bucket, but there are now something like a hundred and thirty seven bajillion sites for hosting photos, so take your pick. (heh heh heh heh ;) )

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"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a television commercial is right for _you_."


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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:04 pm 
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pb4me:


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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:29 pm 
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Duke wrote:
Your running lights will be drawing 110w when they are turned on. 50 - 110 = -60, or a steady drain of 60 watts _out_ of the battery, with nothing going in. Additional power to keep the engine running will also be coming out of the battery.

They may illuminate, but that's because they will draw power from the battery. At least, right up until the bike dies from lack of power and a completely dead battery.


Something Here doesn't ring the bell, of the Ignition System on the Rebel. An explanation, would be Most Appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:11 pm 
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Soul Searcher wrote:
Duke wrote:
Your running lights will be drawing 110w when they are turned on. 50 - 110 = -60, or a steady drain of 60 watts _out_ of the battery, with nothing going in. Additional power to keep the engine running will also be coming out of the battery.

They may illuminate, but that's because they will draw power from the battery. At least, right up until the bike dies from lack of power and a completely dead battery.


Something Here doesn't ring the bell, of the Ignition System on the Rebel. An explanation, would be Most Appreciated.


I think you are alluding to the fact that the 250 ignition system is not in any way connected to the 12 volt system of the bike. It is completely independent of the battery and is powered by a charging coil mounted in the Stator assembly.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:32 pm 
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Soul Searcher wrote:
Duke wrote:
Your running lights will be drawing 110w when they are turned on. 50 - 110 = -60, or a steady drain of 60 watts _out_ of the battery, with nothing going in. Additional power to keep the engine running will also be coming out of the battery.

They may illuminate, but that's because they will draw power from the battery. At least, right up until the bike dies from lack of power and a completely dead battery.


Something Here doesn't ring the bell, of the Ignition System on the Rebel. An explanation, would be Most Appreciated.


I think you are alluding to the fact that the 250 ignition system is not in any way connected to the 12 volt system of the bike. It is completely independent of the battery and is powered by a charging coil mounted in the Stator assembly.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:57 pm 
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Right you are, gentlemen.

Victim of late-night long-windedness combined with a complete lack of proofreading. My fault entirely:

That _should_ read that charging power production may be reduced slightly by frictional loss related to the demands of the engine and keeping itself running.

Minuscule at best, but still real.

My apologies for the horrible lack of oversight.

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"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a television commercial is right for _you_."


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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:24 pm 
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No need to apologize Duke It was still an interesting read as usual.
My basic issue with adding a lot of load (or removing it for that matter) to/from the Rebel electrical system is the constant output fixed magnet alternator. It cannot be controlled to make more or less power like the automotive unit found in my BMW. Permanent magnet alternators make a fixed current, uncontrollable output at any given RPM. The excess power MUST be shorted out by the regulator which converts it to heat.
This type of simple system is optimized for a fixed collection of loads slightly below the alternator output. If you add too much load, then the battery cannot charge because the voltage will fall. If you take away too much load, then you can cook your regulator, because the regulator has to short out a bigger part of the constant output from the alternator.
The BMW uses electronics to control the electromagnetic field current in the alternator which then controls the alternator output to match the load placed on it. No shorting out required, and you can run a small town off this type of system.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:23 pm 
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Yep. The BMW system is a true alternator type system.

If only there were a practical way to switch a magneto system to something like a nice B-circuit alternator. Oh well.

But as far as shorting the power out completely:

Yes. That's pretty much how a magneto works. But given that you're talking less than 200 watts, it's not a terrible risk to reduce the total load, particularly when considering that some of that load simply can't be completely eliminated-- headlights, tail lights-- things that are by law required to pull juice.

Figure just the turn signals: at 27w per bulb, that's 54 watts that are sometimes pulling, sometimes shorted, about 70 times a minute or so when they're in use. And many a Rebel has been doing that since the mid-80s with the original rectifier / regulator.

Dropping voltage due to load is universal, though. Even your BMW will do that. We've built 500amp firetruck alternators that will do that. Every changing system has a limit. The only real defense against losing voltage-- as Bosch has been doing since the 70s-- is running a ridiculously low voltage set point from the beginning. That way, voltage doesn't drop until you're exceeded your ability to make power to begin with.

That's the reason the old Northstar (and other) Caddies started running those goof half-breed Bosch alternators: less voltage fluctuation was better for the computers, particularly when the industry was really starting to get its collective head wrapped around the extent to which computers could be utilized in vehicle management.

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"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a television commercial is right for _you_."


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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:42 am 
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Motorcycle: 86 rebel 250, 99 shadow ace to
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Duke , I did hook up the 110w running lights to the tail light brown wire with an inline switch so I CAN turn them off at will which might help the charging system and then use them sparingly. I did find out the new light lens is too big to fit into the old housing. so I had to go a different route and buy a new headlight bucket and h4 lens from J&P cycles.
http://www.jpcycles.com/product/3100195

it has the build in headlight cover and ribs on the side 5 3/4" old stock sealed beam is only 5 1/4". Seems like very nice quality for the price of 69.99 .

Now for the questions:
It seems to have a smaller light inside the lens and two extra wires coming out of the back.
Blue, green,White all one length
Brown, Black - shorter in length.

not sure where to hook the brown and black wire too? what is this little bulb for?

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:18 pm 
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From the site you linked, it looks like it's just a running light. You can leave it unhooked and focus on the H4.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:41 pm 
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The "little bulb" is most likely a high beam indicator.

The wiring--- that's in a relatively recent post somewhere. Not trying to cut out on you, but Noisy has a science project we have to finish up.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:58 pm 
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well it is a euro headlight that is used for a daytime running lights since they can turn off the headlight during the day. I just left it unconnected and tucked the wires inside the headlight.

Image
Image

Image

shines down driveway over 100ft on low beam really nice white light not the dim seal beam oem light.

Image

I did not turn on the other 110w running lights that are on the crash bars. I still need to check the total pull with all the lights on going down the road. So I just left them turned off..maybe just use them for short time so it does not kill the battery. or just go back to the other led lights I have.

Image

Stock head light with the 110w running lights on

Image

Image


here is the led lights with the stock head light as you see not very bright

Image

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:42 am 
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Duke wrote:
Now don't despair! LED technology is almost affordable now, and that changes everything! :D I say "almost affordable" because most of the LED 'driving lights' you find on the market today are absolute crap, meant to ornamental more than functional. But there are some functional LED driving lights out there.

These, for example:

http://www.alpena.ca/Product.aspx?id=1150

I have a couple of those on the back of the Leviathan that double as back-up lights for the wife (she's night blind). The light from those things is just unbelievable. One of those lights does three amazing things:

1) draws only 16 watts instead of the 55 watts that one of your current auxiliary lights draws.

2) costs seventy bucks.

3) outperforms your actual headlight.

Duke, I just realized those lights are actually stocked at most Advance Auto Parts stores around here for $49.99. Still expensive, but but a bit better and no delay getting them. Most of the stores around me seem to have at least two in stock.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:43 am 
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Also, looks like there are some very legitimate LED headlight options finally coming to the market. Here's a 3500 lumen CREE headlight that draws 40 watts and should be a direct plug and play swap for the stock bulb:
http://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Motorcycle-H ... B00WVJR0D8

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:36 pm 
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fastpakr wrote:
Also, looks like there are some very legitimate LED headlight options finally coming to the market. Here's a 3500 lumen CREE headlight that draws 40 watts and should be a direct plug and play swap for the stock bulb:
http://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Motorcycle-H ... B00WVJR0D8


those don't seem to have low/hi beam???

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:03 pm 
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67fastback wrote:
fastpakr wrote:
Also, looks like there are some very legitimate LED headlight options finally coming to the market. Here's a 3500 lumen CREE headlight that draws 40 watts and should be a direct plug and play swap for the stock bulb:
http://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Motorcycle-H ... B00WVJR0D8


those don't seem to have low/hi beam???

They have both. Looks like it switches between LED's based on which input wire has voltage. That's referenced in the first question on the Amazon listing.

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:11 pm 
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Here is a video after swapping some of the lights out with led.

https://www.facebook.com/phillip.kastru ... =3&theater

video
https://www.facebook.com/phillip.kastru ... =3&theater

video turn signal issue with led. fix?

https://www.facebook.com/phillip.kastru ... permPage=1


pics too.
Image

Image

Not sure if I need to install these so I can get my 1156 led to flash correctly. they just stay on. maybe Duke knows?
Image

Image

Back of the speedo
194 and 74 bulb, could not find a 74 led yet so stayed stock.
Image

Neutral and turn indicator lights swapped , had to roll the rubber back and used hemostats to slide down the side and pry the bulb out.

Image

Tail/brake light bulb
Image

video
https://www.facebook.com/phillip.kastru ... =3&theater


turn signal
Image

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:59 am 
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You don't need the load resistors. What you need to do is swap your existing flasher relay for an electronic one like this:
http://www.amazon.com/3-Pin-CF-13-Elect ... B008C9YJ6C

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 Post subject: Re: replacing the headlight bulb
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:58 am 
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Yep. Simple two-wire flasher relay will solve your problem, so long as you make sure it's an electronic relay and not a thermomechanical relay.

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