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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:35 pm 
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In other words, "yes; it was measured differently."

Which, given the difference, makes those "superior" unmonitored unregulated electronics-free engines look even _more_ pitiful by comparison. The '02 6.0L, which would have been spec'd at the rear wheel, was rated at 300 hp. The '77 I used in my example _exclusively_ because I happened to have stuck in my head some of the specs from that particular car, including the fact that the model I used, with the 7.0L, was rated at 180hp. Granted, if that was a wheel rating, it would have been the front wheel on that particular car, but if it was right off the crank, then .....

well, just.... wow. "Superior."

Though honestly, if even if it was a wheel rating, it's still pretty sad, comparatively.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:05 pm 
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I was under the impression that they used to measure at the wheel while modern measurements were at the crank. It's been forever since I read a car rag, with the last one being an article about the prototype Nissan Mid-4 (go ahead and google that just to see how long ago it's been since I thumbed through an automotive magazine :D ).

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Motorcycle: 2015 Honda Rebel
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: MO
City: Strafford
Here is a good article that discusses the change in methodology from the way that horsepower used to be measured (and advertised) compared to the way it is currently measured (and advertised):
https://ateupwithmotor.com/terms-technology-definitions/gross-versus-net-horsepower/

In a nutshell, advertised horsepower used to be measured at the crankshaft on a stripped down engine - no accessories (such as alternator, a/c compressor, power steering pump, even the water pump), and with no mufflers. The engine tuning (back then, carb jetting and ignition timing) would have been optimized for the engine running "bare", not as it would have been in the car.

The factory advertised horsepower of a modern car is still measured at the crankshaft, but it will be fully equipped similar to what you would find with it installed in said car. There are SAE standards that define the parameters for the manufacturer to follow when testing the horsepower of an engine, so that the numbers advertised to the public are apple-to-apple comparisons.

The HP measured at the wheel will obviously be lower than the advertised HP due to driveline losses, which are pretty significant. For instance, a 2015-17 Mustang GT is advertised at 425 HP (at the crank, all accessories driven, etc), but the same car generally puts out about 360 HP at the wheels.

I'm still amazed that my Mustang makes an honest 425 HP at the crank, yet averages 24.5 MPG. That is practically magic... :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:23 pm 
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The big advantage of computer controlled engines is that they can optimize EVERYTHING taking into account engine speed throttle position etc. Compare that to the old tech when, for example, ignition was advanced crudely by a set of bobweights in the distributer in response only to RPM, and once full advance was reached, there was no further adjustment. Its no wonder modern engines produce so much more power out of less fuel than old engines.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:36 am 
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Joined: Dec 5, 2010
Motorcycle: 1986 Honda Rebel 450
Rebel: 450
Country: USA
State/Province: MD
City: Bowie
Elembytes wrote:
I just saw and sat on the new 2017 Honda Rebels at a Honda showroom in Springfield Missouri.

For someone like me who is 5'3' tall the new design stinks.

Then handlebars do NOT have the swoop back towards the rider, and it is a stretch to feel comfortable riding, let alone having good control of the vehicle.

I do like the new digital spedometer head. The fuel injection and water cooled looks good.

Don't like the key moved to the side but not too bad.

The dealer told me I could get handlebars more to my liking but at what cost? Also they told me the bike is more aimed at the Milenials.

I also found the fuel tank and it's "HIGH RISE hit me in the crotch and belly in a not so good position. Again I am only 5'3" so most others who are taller this will NOT be an issue.

Still sad that they changed things like they did. Would have been nice to upgrade the old cruiser style. But guess we are getting too old nod they are aiming for a new market.

Just FYI- thanks for letting me post my feelings and observations. :D


I've built a few of them here at the dealership, all 500s so far. I'm not a fan, but ill give some more in depth comparison. They remind me of the sportster nightster. Similar seating and handling.
I daily an 86 450 bobber as reference. The front end feels heavier anf the bars don't match the ride. The power is comparable to mine, but I feel like it has more punch down low and suffers up top. Efi and water cooling are a big leap forward. Digital display with clock and fuel gauge is also a selling point.
I was trying to post pictures of them how they come in crates from japan, but can't seem to post from my phone.

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1983 Honda Shadow VT500C (sold)
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1993 Honda Nighthawk 250
1984 Honda V65 Magna
1981 Yamaha XS400 Special
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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:32 am 
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steelgunna wrote:
The front end feels heavier


That must be the fat tire kicking in since the rake & trail are both shorter than the 450 (IIRC the 450 comes in at 5.3", a full inch more than the 500). The +2 raked tree also makes low speed maneuvers feel awkward compared to standard trees like the 450 has.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Motorcycle: 2016 Honda Rebel
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: AZ
City: Chandler
I finally got to check out a "new" Rebel in person, close up. I'm even more disappointed now than I was looking at the pictures. Not only is it ugly, but it is a piece of junk. The difference in quality compared to the "real" Rebel is literally night and day. I do in fact fit on it better than the real Rebel, but no way would I ride it

I own 6 bikes and 3 cars with no computers, and they run just fine. My 53 year old 1964 Fairlane is still on it's original engine, it's never been apart. My 2002 carbureted Vulcan 750 has made it passed 100,000 miles. Carbs have never been off. We all know how reliable the non computerized Rebel is. Yes, some pretty crappy bikes and cars have been made, but their problems were caused by a lack of quality, not because they didn't have computers.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Rebel: 250
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Give it up Jerry.. Computers are here to stay, and EFI works way better than carbs. How many times have you heard of fuel injectors needing to be soaked in seafoarm?

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Duckster wrote:
How many times have you heard of fuel injectors needing to be soaked in seafoarm?


I haven't, but I surmise it would have the same effect as soaking anything else in SeaFoam: dollars making their way into a corporate coffer while producing zero effects with the soaked components. If SeaFoam were only more expensive I would say it's the modern equivalent of $75/pint late-80's/early 90's Slick 50. :D

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:22 pm 
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Motorcycle: 98 Valkyrie
Rebel: 250
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Eh. I used to swear by Seafoam, particularly back in the days of leaded gas.

However, given the ever-increasing portion of alcohol in modern gas, it's becoming less and less helpful, as the alcohol performs pretty much the same job the Seafoam did.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:18 am 
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Joined: Jul 4, 2009
Motorcycle: 2016 Honda Rebel
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: AZ
City: Chandler
Ethanol gas is the reason 4 of my 6 bikes are stored long term now. It has a lifespan of about 6 weeks before it starts to separate, and the heavier water based ethanol settles to the bottom. I have seen petcocks destroyed by it, carburetors destroyed by it, and yes, even $500 EFI fuel pumps, which sit in the bottom of the tank, destroyed by it. It is extremely corrosive, it corrodes aluminum and brass, and rusts steel. It melts plastic and rubber. It cracks the type of plastic they make dirt bike tanks out of. You cannot leave it in a gas tank for more than 2 months before the damage starts. In my present condition I just can't ride 6 bikes often enough to keep fresh gas in them, especially in the summer. So four of them are stored in the living room. I drained out ALL the ethanol (I had to remove the tanks to do it) out of the tanks and carbs, and put TruFuel in them. It is a fuel designed for small engines, and as a storage fuel. It is super expensive, but guaranteed to last 2 years. It costs way too much to use for riding, but it allows me to start those bikes up once every week or two, warm them up, put them in gear, so everything that is supposed to move gets moved. The cylinders don't freeze in the bores, the clutch plates don't stick together, the brakes get used, the chains/shafts get turned, oil and coolant get circulated, etc. All this gets done in the living room, and is quick and easy. I put cheap oil in them, and change it every couple of months to deal with condensation.

The 2 bikes I am currently riding (the Sportster and the Rebel) are parked in the garage, with gas in the tanks. I can usually ride them enough to keep the gas fresh. Though I have on occasion had to drain gas out of them into a gas can until they were empty (or as empty as you can get them through the petcock) pour the old gas in a car, and pour fresh gas in the bikes. Next riding season (next winter) I will store those two in the living room, and pick out 2 more to ride. If we had real gas with no ethanol, it has a lifespan of more than 6 months, and all this expensive and troublesome monkey motion wouldn't be necessary.

Unleaded gas came out the same year I got my drivers license, 1975. I use cheap marine grade 2 stroke oil in my old pre emissions cars to help lubricate the valves. Unleaded gas is hard enough on them, but ethanol, being a non petroleum based solvent, tends to wash all the lubrication off everything. Even in modern engines it washes the oil off the cylinder walls, shortening the life of the engine.

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"New vehicles move the body,old vehicles move the soul"
"If you understand, no explanation is necessary. If you don't, no explanation is possible"


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:38 am 
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Motorcycle: 2016 Honda Rebel
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: AZ
City: Chandler
Duckster wrote:
Give it up Jerry.. Computers are here to stay, and EFI works way better than carbs. How many times have you heard of fuel injectors needing to be soaked in seafoarm?


Why is it that you can buy fuel injector cleaner to put in gas? Why do some brands of gas have additives (like Techron) that are supposed to clean fuel injectors? How does EFI work better than carbs? I have a bike with 128,000 miles on it, and the carbs have never been off, nor have they ever caused any problems. I grew up with carbs, still use them, and don't seem to have the problems everybody else complains about. Yes, computers are likely here to stay, and may in fact be what causes the end of the human species. We already rely on them so much that it causes a serious disaster when they go down, which they have a habit of doing. The thought of our nuclear weapons being controlled by computers is about as scary as it gets.

But as far as computers and motorcycles, No way will I give up. There are plenty of carbureted bikes (and cars) out there to easily last me the rest of my life. I probably already own enough as it is. I have even successfully converted one truck and one motorcycle from EFI to a carb. The truck does have what some would call electronic ignition. But it is not the modern computer controlled stuff. It is GM's HEI, or High Energy Ignition, a pointless type of ignition that uses an analog control module and a Hall Effect sensor to replace the points. It is from the early '70s, it is tough, and easy to troubleshoot. GM no longer makes it and gave up the patent. It is so popular that several aftermarket companies now make it.

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"Obsolete doesn't mean it isn't any good, it just means it isn't made anymore"
"New vehicles move the body,old vehicles move the soul"
"If you understand, no explanation is necessary. If you don't, no explanation is possible"


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:00 am 
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Motorcycle: 1986 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
Rebel: Other
Country: USA
State/Province: VA
City: Roanoke
Have you forgotten when gas stations marketed the same gas as having additives for carbs? Nothing whatsoever has changed in that regard. What's your point? There are lots of products on the automotive market that don't actually do anything substantial, yet sell quite well.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Motorcycle: 2014 CB500XA
Rebel: None
Country: USA
State/Province: AZ
City: Green Valley
Yup, love them carbureted bikes:

Image

Oh, wait, that got replaced with this:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Rebel: 250
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JerryH wrote:
Duckster wrote:
Give it up Jerry.. Computers are here to stay, and EFI works way better than carbs. How many times have you heard of fuel injectors needing to be soaked in seafoarm?


Why is it that you can buy fuel injector cleaner to put in gas? .


You can buy all kinds of snake oil in the autoparts store if you want to waste your money. The fact is that most car/bike owners will never have an issue with the fuel injection system on their vehicle as long as they own it. It will run the same way for the life of the vehicle.

Compare that with the tweaking and cleaning that is typical on a carbureted bike like the Rebel that is not used regularly. Carbs are always giving weird problems.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:41 pm 
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fastpakr wrote:
There are lots of products on the automotive market that don't actually do anything substantial, yet sell quite well.


<cough>SeaFoam</cough>

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Motorcycle: 2016 Honda Rebel
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: AZ
City: Chandler
I have been riding and working on carbureted bikes for so long I simply cannot relate to anything else. To me a computer is what I am typing on right now. I have no idea how it works. You don't have to know how something works to be able to use it. Unless it is your hobby. Then you need to be able to understand everything and do anything with it. You need to be seriously interested in learning about it. You have to be able to work on every part of it. That's why bikes and cars are my main hobbies. I may have to use computers, but I have a strong dislike for them, and certainly no interest in learning anything about them beyond what is absolutely necessary to do what I need to do. I am from a pre computer era, and have no intention of accepting them, at least not as part of other hobbies I've had for 50 years.

When you have a vehicle with EFI, there is no way to know how it works. Yes, you can say that the ECU receives information from various sensors, and using that information, alters the ignition timing and fuel injectors. That's all well and good, except it doesn't tell you anything. I know at least that the information is sent back and fourth over wires. But what does the ECU do? What goes on inside it? I've broken a number of them apart, and do not see anything I recognize. That's where the difference between electrics and electronics comes in. I fully understand electrics, and can troubleshoot them with a simple multimeter. But digital electronics are a whole nother thing. Even the manufacturers don't know how they work. My brother in law is working for Intel for $85,000+ a year, and admits he has no idea how microprocessors work. I have yet to find anyone who does.

Nobody who works on that stuff on vehicles (and that included me a few years ago) knows how it works either. They simply connect another computer with the proper software for the vehicle up to the vehicles computer, and it tells the diagnostic computer what the problem is, and through a visual interface, it tells the technician where to start looking for the problem. An understanding of how it all works is not necessary, all you have to know is how to operate the equipment. Not for me. I understand every last detail of how a carburetor works, how to repair one, how to tune one, all the parts are mechanical, you can see them, measure them, weigh them, feel them. The parts are all tangeble. Solid. Not electrons flowing through a microprocessor a million different ways.

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"New vehicles move the body,old vehicles move the soul"
"If you understand, no explanation is necessary. If you don't, no explanation is possible"


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:11 pm 
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Rebel: 250
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Well Jerry, I've now owned 3 EFI bikes since 1994, and have never even had to worry about how the EFI works because it just does.. No muss, no fuss.
I have never even adjusted idle speed, nothing... They work the same all the time. Turn the key. hit start button, go as far and as long as you want.
If EFI was giving a lot of trouble, maybe your concerns would resonate a bit more, but it sounds to me like you just enjoy fiddling with carbs. I'd rather just ride the bike.

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2003 BMW K1200GT
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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:42 am 
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Motorcycle: 2009 Honda Rebel 250
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: TX
City: Dallas
JerryH wrote:
I have been riding and working on carbureted bikes for so long I simply cannot relate to anything else. To me a computer is what I am typing on right now. I have no idea how it works. You don't have to know how something works to be able to use it. Unless it is your hobby. Then you need to be able to understand everything and do anything with it. You need to be seriously interested in learning about it. You have to be able to work on every part of it. That's why bikes and cars are my main hobbies. I may have to use computers, but I have a strong dislike for them, and certainly no interest in learning anything about them beyond what is absolutely necessary to do what I need to do. I am from a pre computer era, and have no intention of accepting them, at least not as part of other hobbies I've had for 50 years.

When you have a vehicle with EFI, there is no way to know how it works. Yes, you can say that the ECU receives information from various sensors, and using that information, alters the ignition timing and fuel injectors. That's all well and good, except it doesn't tell you anything. I know at least that the information is sent back and fourth over wires. But what does the ECU do? What goes on inside it? I've broken a number of them apart, and do not see anything I recognize. That's where the difference between electrics and electronics comes in. I fully understand electrics, and can troubleshoot them with a simple multimeter. But digital electronics are a whole nother thing. Even the manufacturers don't know how they work. My brother in law is working for Intel for $85,000+ a year, and admits he has no idea how microprocessors work. I have yet to find anyone who does.

Nobody who works on that stuff on vehicles (and that included me a few years ago) knows how it works either. They simply connect another computer with the proper software for the vehicle up to the vehicles computer, and it tells the diagnostic computer what the problem is, and through a visual interface, it tells the technician where to start looking for the problem. An understanding of how it all works is not necessary, all you have to know is how to operate the equipment. Not for me. I understand every last detail of how a carburetor works, how to repair one, how to tune one, all the parts are mechanical, you can see them, measure them, weigh them, feel them. The parts are all tangeble. Solid. Not electrons flowing through a microprocessor a million different ways.






I can relate to your fondness for the simpler designs of older machines. And I haven't forgotten the first few years of computer engine management. That was in the pre-dos days of computers, and at a time when domestic auto manufacturers saw no point in designing anything to last more than 100K miles. Modern computer management tech has advanced exponentially since then. I've never worked on a fuel injected bike, but I expect that day will come. Probably when I replace my beloved '09 Rebel. I don't have room to keep more than one bike.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 Honda Rebel- just sat on one in the showroom
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:46 am 
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Motorcycle: 2016 Honda Rebel
Rebel: 250
Country: USA
State/Province: AZ
City: Chandler
" I don't have room to keep more than one bike." I have 6, all of them carbureted. At 58, I think I'm pretty well set. The brand new Rebel alone could last 100,000 miles.

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"Obsolete doesn't mean it isn't any good, it just means it isn't made anymore"
"New vehicles move the body,old vehicles move the soul"
"If you understand, no explanation is necessary. If you don't, no explanation is possible"


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